tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post317923796608071342..comments2023-08-19T12:02:43.740-04:00Comments on An Immigrant's Evolving Perspective: More about the Chongqing Temple PredicamentXujunhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05534267282303815433noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-45994339529363474962009-05-14T13:14:00.000-04:002009-05-14T13:14:00.000-04:00Xujun, you wrote,
"You make an interesting point...Xujun, you wrote, <br /><br />"You make an interesting point, though I do think that there is a difference between a government that has for centuries had the head of state be the head of the state religion, and a government that has declared itself atheist. Why should an atheist government be appointing people in religious positions? "<br /><br />Hmmm. I'm having a little trouble seeing the essence of the distinction you're drawing. Perhaps it is because to call the English crown the "head of the state religion" is somewhat dubious, in my view. It may be so as a matter of English law, but as a matter of substance, it is doubtful that many English Christians look to the Queen as the spiritual head of their church; certainly not in the way Roman Catholics look to the Pope.<br /><br />In fact, the manner in which the English monarch first asserted its legal authority over the church from 1534 onward was as much an act of state tyranny whether seen through the eyes of contemporaries then or today. Monastic lands and properties were confiscated outright, and religious personnel who resisted faced execution: "In less than 20 years, the monastic impulse had effectively been extinguished in England." <br /><br />See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Monasteries for a flavor of <br /><br />"Philosophical concepts of the power of the king over church may have played a part in Henry's decision to suppress the monasteries, but so did greed. The monasteries were rich, and a lot of that wealth found its way directly or indirectly to the royal treasury. Some of the monastery buildings were sold to wealthy gentry for use as country estates. Many others became sources of cheap building materials for local inhabitants."<br /><br />See<br />http://www.britainexpress.com/History/Dissolution_of_the_Monasteries.htm<br /><br />Seen in a broader perspective, one can view the Dissolution of the Monasteries in 16th century England as one of the first significant steps in the secularization of Europe, involving the emergence of nation states, leading to the Enlightenment, age of political revolutions (followed by the industrial revolution, with its concomitant labor-capital tensions, and colonial empire-building, leading to the emergence of modern nation-building states in the developing world in the 20th century). The English confiscation of church properties for secular purposes (for the use of Oxford and Cambridge colleges) and the assertion of secular control over religious institutions and personnel find their echoes in actions taken by modernizing secular governments such as in the PRC in the 20th century. <br /><br />These actions were abusive, cruel and ugly in 16th century England, just as they were in 20th century China. Secularization has its victors and its victims. <br /><br />While it seems to be a common reflex to condemn the PRC government for its assertion of secular authority over religious institutions, one should not fail to consider how modern governments in other places which seldom receive such condemnation today (such as England) gained their control over religious authorities centuries earlier.<br /><br />My point is this: the only reason England has a government that "for centuries had the head of state be the head of the state religion" is because the English government crushed and neutered its religious institutions almost 500 years ago and left them a feeble shadow of their former selves, unable to challenge its political authority. The fact that the English state has reigned supreme over its religious institutions for almost 500 years there means that it has had more time to work out forms of accommodation that become settled and widely acceptable. <br /><br />The Chinese government has not had much time, in comparison. The Chongqing Hot Spring Temple should be an interesting case to observe. Thank you for drawing our attention to it.perspectiveherenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-60703319939145135412009-05-12T16:30:00.000-04:002009-05-12T16:30:00.000-04:00"There is a difference between Regulation and bein..."There is a difference between Regulation and being Regulated."<br />________________________________<br /><br />Westerners dont like being regulated.<br /><br />Assume you make 100,000 dollars a year. If your government cant regulate you in some ways, then there is no way your government can limit the influence and the power of the riches in your country, see how the government gave away hundreds of billions of dollars/Euros to save the banks and financial institutions ?<br /><br />That, is the price you have to pay for not wanting being regulated.<br /><br />There is one thing you have to remember :<br /><br />One of the necessary conditions that a government can be called a people's government is that the government can limit the influence and power of riches.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-6175300799050450902009-05-12T02:42:00.000-04:002009-05-12T02:42:00.000-04:00@please
Just a thought
There is a difference betw...@please<br />Just a thought<br /><br />There is a difference between Regulation and being Regulated.<br /><br />in the same way there is a difference between Harmony and being Harmonized....alfaecohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06911891345810629684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-50765174714391321322009-05-12T02:31:00.000-04:002009-05-12T02:31:00.000-04:00@please
I think we have a different understanding ...@please<br />I think we have a different understanding or Regulation.<br /><br />From my direct experience I can tell there is a different between regulation and direct intervention.<br /><br />Any government has the power to intervene in internal affairs of organizations when it sees it necessary (or urgent) to do so. But that is not regulation to me, rather... special circumstances.<br /><br />What reasons make a government to intervene in such direct way and in which institutions?<br /><br />Hhhhmm.... it depends on the nature of the government. ;-)alfaecohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06911891345810629684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-22429022649840637732009-05-09T08:37:00.000-04:002009-05-09T08:37:00.000-04:00Regulation is different from direct intervention i...Regulation is different from direct intervention in internal affairs of any, political or religious, organization.<br />--------------------------------<br /><br />Nonsense. Regulation is the just concept that I will mess with you if you do not obey me. For example bank regulation, the top bankers must be approved by banking regulators. If necessary, regulators can fire the whole board of directors (BOA and treasury) in order to make the banks buy something they do not want to buy. And for banks and insurance companies, whether you can do business is also subject to approve. Church or temple is no different from bank or insurance company on this front as far as I can seepleasenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-66853578159808979882009-05-09T08:30:00.000-04:002009-05-09T08:30:00.000-04:00alfaeco, you might be right. CCP before the end o...alfaeco, you might be right. CCP before the end of CR could be seen as an atheist government. Currently it is more a namely atheist but actual secular governmentpleasenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-76246469215442596562009-05-09T03:56:00.000-04:002009-05-09T03:56:00.000-04:00"It actually makes perfect sense for an atheist go..."It actually makes perfect sense for an atheist government to regulate religious groups: because its atheist view, an atheist government can just treat the religious groups as regular organizations as companies or NGOs."<br /><br />Actually not, an Atheist government will have a conflict of interest in regulating religion. In the same way a religious government would have a conflict of interest in regulating atheist organizations.<br /><br />Secular government is more correct.alfaecohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06911891345810629684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-79845683066180329492009-05-09T03:51:00.000-04:002009-05-09T03:51:00.000-04:00In China, religion is instrumentalized by the gove...In China, religion is instrumentalized by the government to control society.alfaecohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06911891345810629684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-56865692664700238782009-05-09T03:49:00.000-04:002009-05-09T03:49:00.000-04:00Regulation is different from direct intervention i...Regulation is different from direct intervention in internal affairs of any, political or religious, organization.alfaecohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06911891345810629684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-24632668741308607462009-05-09T01:10:00.000-04:002009-05-09T01:10:00.000-04:00Traditionally, the emperor had the authority to ma...Traditionally, the emperor had the authority to make religious appointments. In China, religion serves government, not the other way around. Religion independent of government is subversion by definition (hetrodox).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-83232072497835129432009-05-08T11:29:00.000-04:002009-05-08T11:29:00.000-04:00Why should an atheist government be appointing peo...Why should an atheist government be appointing people in religious positions? <br /><br />---------------------<br /><br />Seriously, is it some kind of blind view? It actually makes perfect sense for an atheist government to regulate religious groups: because its atheist view, an atheist government can just treat the religious groups as regular organizations as companies or NGOs. So as a head of state, it has authority on all organizations under its jurisdiction.pleasenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-42869162949074373792009-05-08T09:59:00.000-04:002009-05-08T09:59:00.000-04:00It seems in China a separation of Church and State...It seems in China a separation of Church and State is needed.<br /><br />Not because o the meddling of the Church with the State but of meddling of the State with the Church.<br /><br />Interesting Chinese characteristic....alfaecohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06911891345810629684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-22368549879000749652009-05-07T21:26:00.000-04:002009-05-07T21:26:00.000-04:00Perspectivehere,
You make an interesting point, t...Perspectivehere,<br /><br />You make an interesting point, though I do think that there is a difference between a government that has for centuries had the head of state be the head of the state religion, and a government that has declared itself atheist. Why should an atheist government be appointing people in religious positions? <br /><br />By the way, your extension of the mother-in-law metaphor made me chuckle. :-)Xujunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05534267282303815433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-205498597525509762009-05-07T18:29:00.000-04:002009-05-07T18:29:00.000-04:00Xujun,
Regarding the netizen's comment, "Why shou...Xujun,<br /><br />Regarding the netizen's comment, "Why should a religious position be appointed by the government?" it might put things in perspective to consider this:<br /><br />Church of England appointment of bishops has always involved government input (and even control) for almost 500 years. <br /><br />See, for example:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appointment_of_Church_of_England_bishops<br /><br />It was only in 2007 that Gordon Brown reduced the government's role in appointing bishops "in one of the biggest changes to the relationship between Church and State for generations."<br /> <br />"The Prime Minister made it clear, however, that the Government remained committed to the establishment of the Church of England with the monarch as Supreme Governor."<br /> <br />See:<br />http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2023035.ece<br /><br />No one accuses England of being stuck in the Maoist era. <br /><br />Looking at the world over, there are all kinds of accommodations to resolve the conflicts between religious organizations and the State over authority, taxation, land use, conscience and "rendering unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar". China is no different in this regard.<br /><br />I think your description of the religious personnel as a "daughter-in-law with no husband but having multiple bossy (and sometimes even abusive) mothers-in-law" is a charming metaphor for the inevitable tensions that arise in the relationship between religious and secular authorities, not just in China, but everywhere.<br /><br />But I would modify it somewhat: instead of "no husband", the "husband" is actually the people whom the daughter-in-law (religious organization) is serving. The husband owes allegiance and love (of a different kind) to both his wife and mother, but sometimes has difficulty choosing, and always has to tiptoe a fine line between the two, at the risk of offending one with too much loyalty towards the other.<br /><br />And when wife and mother-in-law fight, that's when the husband really suffers.perspectiveherenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-85195099474853711722009-05-07T11:19:00.000-04:002009-05-07T11:19:00.000-04:00In the US there are many groups such as Americans ...In the US there are many groups such as Americans for Separation of Church and State and ACLU that sue the govt and religious organizations that try to break down the wall of separation between religion and govt - and they very often win their cases. And the verdicts are actually enforced! I would not call the words of the first anon above "cheap extreme words". They are heartfelt and quite true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-64714381998119613122009-05-07T10:53:00.000-04:002009-05-07T10:53:00.000-04:00In an ideal country even in the US there should be...In an ideal country even in the US there should be a separation of church and state but in reality that is not true. Like what Anonymous says, that in the US, many religious groups lobby the government against abortion and gay marriage. Some religious groups believe that parents should not immunize their child and the government have to step in. Also, check out the supreme court case Employment Division vs. Smith. These court cases would influence the Religious Freedom Restoration Act where religious freedom is allowed as long as it does not conflict with the interest of the state. <br /><br />I think China does follow similiar guidelines in terms of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act in the US. The Falun gong was questioned when its follows does not think they do not have to see the doctor for sickness. Later they were really put down because they tried to destabilize the government. Followers of the Dalai Lama was being put down for similiar reasons.pug sterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13840132945693227486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-29065408672702164482009-05-07T09:56:00.000-04:002009-05-07T09:56:00.000-04:00Since religious groups try to influence politics a...Since religious groups try to influence politics all the time, I do not see why Gov should not have some agencies to manage religious activities.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-37633035071456104682009-05-07T02:39:00.000-04:002009-05-07T02:39:00.000-04:00http://amtbjiejie.blogspot.com/2009/04/blog-post_2...http://amtbjiejie.blogspot.com/2009/04/blog-post_25.html<br />请看看这个报道Sutrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07715396816882488271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-83942707156410584852009-05-07T00:36:00.000-04:002009-05-07T00:36:00.000-04:00http://www.insideoutchina.com/2009/05/more-about-c...http://www.insideoutchina.com/2009/05/more-about-chongqing-temple.htmlSutrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07715396816882488271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-88778789501628142512009-05-06T20:53:00.000-04:002009-05-06T20:53:00.000-04:00It is interesting that netizens speak up against t...It is interesting that netizens speak up against the government appointing religious figures. Where are those voices when the same government carry out the same policies in Tibet?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-40332200711256121362009-05-06T12:18:00.000-04:002009-05-06T12:18:00.000-04:00Hello,
I already read your article.
You write the...Hello,<br />I already read your article. <br />You write the information that I need. I am very pleased to find that information in your blog.<br />Thank you for share your knowledge with us. <br />Good Luck.<br /><br />Link exchange please..Sulumits Retsambewhttp://torokossik.blogspot.com/2009/05/sulumits-retsambew-net-builders-seo.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-25361675927175631372009-05-06T10:40:00.000-04:002009-05-06T10:40:00.000-04:00Anon, I prefer rational discussions instead of che...Anon, I prefer rational discussions instead of cheap extreme words.Xujunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05534267282303815433noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13974296645733775.post-73299743684517445902009-05-06T02:20:00.000-04:002009-05-06T02:20:00.000-04:00Alas! I witnessed the destruction of the North Hot...Alas! I witnessed the destruction of the North Hot Spring Park which used to be one of my favorite parks in this horrible monstrous city (my hometown, sadly) with few parks. There is no rule of law in China today and the bunch of CCP hooligans is hurriedly digging their own tombs...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com